Conservatrolling Topic

[Tails82]

Please define full coverage for us. Do we mandate broccoli? Do we mandate free lollipops and puppies to reduce stress? Let's stop fooling ourselves with the idea that increasing mandates of things people don't want/need and requiring more services will save money instead of ramping up costs. But the more important thing is that Obamacare is an authoritarian bill which violates religious freedom.

Left unaddressed is this idea that churches can't help other people, when that's basically their mission, so you're pretty much denying reality at this point.

What's an example of a non-charity church project?

[Tails82]

www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/13/emails-show-irs-official-lerner-involved-in-tea-party-screening/

Emails show IRS official Lerner involved in Tea Party screening

Embattled IRS official Lois Lerner appeared to be deeply involved in scrutinizing the applications of Tea Party groups for tax-exempt status, according to newly released emails that further challenge the claim the targeting was the work of rogue Ohio-based employees.

One curious February 2011 email from Lerner said, "Tea Party Matter very dangerous" -- before going on to warn that the "matter" could be used to go to court to test campaign spending limits...That and other emails show Lerner and other Washington, D.C., officials playing a big role in dealing with Tea Party cases.

"There is increasing and overwhelming evidence that Lois Lerner and high-level IRS employees in Washington were abusing their power to prevent conservative groups from organizing and carrying out their missions," he said in a statement. "It is clear the IRS is out of control and there will be consequences."

While Congress investigates, Tea Party groups are still registering complaints. A Washington Times report said more than 50 applications were still pending or had been pulled as of July.

www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/13/wisconsin-teachers-union-decertified-in-latest-blow-to-labor-under-walker-law/?intcmp=latestnews

Wisconsin teachers union decertified in latest blow to labor under Walker law

Teachers from one of Wisconsin’s largest unions have jumped ship -- voting overwhelmingly to abandon the group in the latest in a string of setbacks for the struggling labor movement following Gov. Scott Walker’s union overhaul two years ago.

The decision this week to disband by members of the Kenosha Education Association came after the organization was stripped of its certification and told it had lost its power to bargain for base wages with the district. The group was decertified after missing a key deadline in the annual reapplication process.

The development is in keeping with an overall downward spiral for Wisconsin’s public worker unions. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reported earlier this year that tens of thousands of teachers and other government workers have left their unions since the Walker-backed law took effect.

Matt Patterson, labor analyst with the conservative Competitive Enterprise Institute, claimed the vote was a sign that workers were turning their backs on the unions.

“The news today proves what unions have long feared -- that when workers are actually given a free and fair choice, they will often choose opt out of union membership altogether,” he said.

“The public at large — and an increasing number of union members — have become wise to the fact labor unions stifle innovation and burden governments and businesses with unsustainable costs and regulations."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24088418

US broadcast network National Public Radio plans to shed 10% of its staff in an effort to close a $6.1m (£3.8m) budget deficit, a spokeswoman has said.

The organisation has operated under a deficit since 2009, NPR spokeswoman Anna Bross told the BBC.

The broadcaster has also seen several high-profile firings and turnover in its leadership in recent years, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars in severance payments.

The network is a favourite target of conservatives and Republicans, who see it as biased and an inappropriate recipient of taxpayer funds.

Those public options just keep blowing the private competitors out of the water, huh?

How much money is wasted propping up this failure?

www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/09/13/Tea-Party-bashing-NPR-Chief-paid-over-half-million-severance-bonuses

Tea Party-Bashing NPR Chief Paid Half-Million In Severance, Bonuses

Currently, American taxpayers subsidize the left-wing NPR to the tune of around $450 million annually, some of which went to Vivian Schiller (pictured), the chief executive forced to resign in 2011 after she was caught on tape denigrating the Tea Party, conservatives in general, and appearing to agree with the idea that Jews run the media...Still, according to tax records, Schiller not only received $532,212 in severance in 2011, but a $5712 bonus.

Other executives also forced to resign were paid $246,319 and $872,189 in severance.

It pays to be a Jew basher in the Democrat coalition.

www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/09/13/Union-Boss-We-ll-Be-Damned-If-We-re-Going-To-Lose-Our-Health-Insurance

Union Boss Rips Obamacare: 'We'll Be Damned if We're Going to Lose Our Health Insurance!'

Laborers' International Union of North America (LIUNA) President Terry O'Sullivan said, "if the Affordable Care Act is not fixed, and it destroys the health and welfare funds that we have all fought for and stand for, then I believe it needs to be repealed. We don't want it repealed. We want it fixed...We can't have the unintended consequences for the proud men and women that we represent to be collateral damage in the healthcare fight in this country."

(It isn't unintended...)

Last week, the AFL-CIO passed a strongly-worded resolution blasting Obamacare despite the Obama Administration's attempts to quell union opposition to aspects of the government healthcare overhaul.

O'Sullivan, borrowing from Vice President Joe Biden's vulgar words whispered to President Barack Obama upon signing the bill, told the audience, "It's going to be a big frickin' deal if our members lose our health insurance!"

www.politico.com/story/2013/09/government-trust-poll-96773.html?hp=r4

Less than half of Americans trust the government to handle problems, a[n] all-time low...The public’s trust is even lower when it comes to domestic issues. Just 42 percent of Americans answered with a great deal or fair amount of confidence in the government to handle issues at home, one point below the previous low from 2011.

”Americans’ trust and confidence in the federal government’s ability to solve problems internationally as well as domestically has fallen to historic lows this year,” Gallup said.

Now you see why I rip on TIME magazine:

www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/09/13/15-journalists-have-joined-obama-administration

15 Journalists Have Joined Obama Administration

According to the Atlantic, Time managing editor Rick Stengel's decision to join the Obama administration is just the latest example of a new trend among mainstream media journalists who are making it official by joining the Obama administration. Stengel, who is joining the State Department, is just one of 15 (or 19) who have given up a career in journalism to join Obama's crusade to fundamentally transform America:

Whether the number is 15 or 19, the fact that this many so-called journalists from outlets as influential as CBS, ABC, CNN, Time, the Washington Post, Boston Globe, and the Los Angeles Times want to work at the very same administration they are supposed to hold accountable is not only troubling; it also explains a lot.

Why would anyone enamored enough with an Obama administration they want to go work for do anything that might make a potential employer uncomfortable -- you know, like actually report on ObamaCare and the economy honestly, or dig into Benghazi and the IRS?

The media is left-wing and crusading enough without the potential of a cushy government job being held out as a carrot.

And don't think the Obama administration isn't doling out these jobs for a reason. What a wonderful message to send to the world of media: Don't go too far, don't burn a bridge, don't upset us too much and there just might be a lifeline off the sinking MSM ship.

www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/09/12/Student-Protestors-Rip-2977-American-Flags-Out-of-the-Ground

Student Protesters Rip 2,977 American Flags Out of Ground at 9/11 Memorial

The 9/11: Never Forget Project has been an annual nonpartisan event at Middlebury College for the past ten years...students honor the victims of the attacks, as well as honor the American principles for which they died.

Middlebury student groups spent nearly two hours setting up the flag display yesterday morning. The protesters told Ben Kinney, president of the conservative club on campus, they were "confiscating" the flags in protest of "America's imperialism."

The protesters refused to compromise with the students because the flags were supposedly located on an "Indian burial ground and you can't have anything penetrating the Earth."

Edit: I think "rip" was repeated too much tonight.

[Deleted]

You need to stop fooling yourself into thinking the mandates are unreasonable.
If you stick a religious hospital somewhere, some people will be refused treatment, and the hospital simply being there will crowd out other hospitals that actually do provide the coverage people need.
They become a burden on society no matter their intentions when they refuse coverage.

You aren't having your religious freedom attacked, everyone else is having their religious freedom protected.

[Tails82]

...what

[Deleted]

Yes, the freedom to show up with a problem at a hospital and not get turned away because of someone else's religion.

[Tails82]

Uhh

If you stick a religious hospital somewhere, some people will be refused treatment,

So more hospitals...means less treatment...

and the hospital simply being there will crowd out other hospitals that actually do provide the coverage people need.
They become a burden on society no matter their intentions when they refuse coverage.

So...there is only a fixed amount of space...a designated hospital area...and by providing care...they are in fact really secretly not doing that? What, because they got in the way of the state? Do you think this is a zero-sum game? Like the Catholic church has hospitals, early on before our so-called caring nations btw, so now the government shows up and asks how come they set up the hospital there because now the other guy can't make a hospital of their own? Sounds like a bully on the playground, wherever anyone decides to go the big shot follows and tells him to get out of his way, or they're playing with toys which are now his. That's the best I can make out of that nonsensical argument. Assumed monopoly power, after the fact, to shove anything existing previous out of the way. Do you really view any outside actor as a threat?

What is "refusing treatment"? That's a BS claim, quite frankly. Plenty of people go there for help and get it, that's why they're in business. YOU want to "crowd out" hospitals because you don't agree with religion. This is a thing we call projection. You do not want a level playing field so laws are made specifically to target religion and force them out. It is essentially criminalizing help to people, telling people to give up the Christian mission, it amounts to state persecution. Religious groups will be breaking the law no matter what they do when they try to practice their faith in the public realm. Such coercion is profoundly unconstitutional and un-American, we can even say against civilization in general. Barbaric, backward, bigoted, based off nothing but a perverse desire to punish Christians. You have no reason to back this other than hate, irrationally coming out against something while simultaneously holding a view that nothing can be wrong. But I guess it proves that theory, in a way. The left has decided to prove there is no evil they won't embrace, no rights they won't trample. It's confrontation for the sake of confrontation, I guess that's one (messed up) way to get some jollies in this life, for those who believe in nothing and have nothing to look forward to.

In the meantime let's see whether the affected communities, esp. the poor ones where help is located, like seeing hospital close.

You aren't having your religious freedom attacked, everyone else is having their religious freedom protected.

So...requiring nuns to pay for contraceptives...isn't really violating their beliefs...but protecting their own new, state-mandated beliefs that just popped up this year, that they must now self-insure themselves with something they won't use? Abortion and sterilization mandates...those aren't violating the conscience of religious groups...but actually "protecting" the religious beliefs of third party insurers...whose belief is that you must be required to pay for something of theirs...even though you won't use it?

Whose beliefs are being protected? I would like to know where church-state is, Jen. Or can we now mandate you have to pay for bibles, if a politician decides that's a good idea?

Yes, the freedom to show up with a problem at a hospital and not get turned away because of someone else's religion.

Obamacare would cause those people to be turned away. Otherwise patients have been, and will be, taken in.

[Deleted]

Do you not understand the problem here?

You claim religious issues that prevent you from providing some services in your religious hospitals.
This is your religion causing hospitals to refuse treatment. It is not some "bs claim" on my end, this is literally the entire argument you just brought up against Obamacare; it makes you need to do these things to maintain tax exemption.

We don't care if your nuns won't need abortions, other people will; if you refuse honest medical services, why should you be treated as an honest medical facility?

Furthermore, yes, a hospital in an area generally dissuades the building of another hospital in that area; if yours doesn't provide coverage for real issues people have you're doing a disservice to every member of the local community that isn't a member of your religion.

[Tails82]

Do you not understand the problem here?

The problem is Obamacare and violations of religious liberty.

This is your religion causing hospitals to refuse treatment.

No, it's Obama who refuses treatment by shutting down hospitals and regulating them out of existence. It's Obama who's set up a death panel and talks about denying care to people, just give them a pain pill and send them off to die. It's Obama who wants to kill babies and is all right with letting them die on the floor.

We don't care if your nuns won't need abortions, other people will;

No one "needs" an abortion. It's even more absurd when groups that self-insure will be required just for the sake of paying into a fund they'll never use, adding unnecessary bureaucracy and raising costs.

if you refuse honest medical services, why should you be treated as an honest medical facility?

I don't consider Obamacare to be an illegitimate law for this reason, since he's refusing service. He wants to close down not only hospitals but any business he disagrees with. Taxpayers are not obligated to pay for mass murder.

Furthermore, yes, a hospital in an area generally dissuades the building of another hospital in that area;

Are you arguing it's good for Obamacare to shut down hospitals?

If another hospital in the area is not necessary, it means the need has already been met i.e. the current hospital is already providing treatment. They do not need an ignoramus like Barack Obama, who doesn't know jack about the health industry, telling them what they need to do.

if yours doesn't provide coverage for real issues people have you're doing a disservice to every member of the local community that isn't a member of your religion.

If some lunatic wants their arms chopped off, hospitals aren't required to do that. If someone believes his life is worthless and wants to poison himself to death, hospitals are not required to do that. It's the exact opposite of their mission. Are we to unconstituionally require hospitals to snip the spinal cords of babies, or tear them apart limb from limb? That's not a hospital, it's a charnelhouse.

[Deleted]

It has never been more obvious you have literally no idea what you're talking about.
Can you think for yourself for once, instead of just circlejerk with the rest of your religious friends?

HR 3590 50-53 said:

(a) SPECIAL RULES RELATING TO COVERAGE OF ABORTION SERVICES.—

...

(3) PROVIDER CONSCIENCE PROTECTIONS.—No individual
health care provider or health care facility may be discriminated
against because of a willingness or an unwillingness, if doing
so is contrary to the religious or moral beliefs of the provider
or facility, to provide, pay for, provide coverage of, or refer
for abortions.

(b) APPLICATION OF STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS REGARDING
ABORTION.—
(1) NO PREEMPTION OF STATE LAWS REGARDING ABORTION.—
Nothing in this Act shall be construed to preempt or otherwise
have any effect on State laws regarding the prohibition of
(or requirement of) coverage, funding, or procedural requirements on abortions, including parental notification or consent
for the performance of an abortion on a minor.
(2) NO EFFECT ON FEDERAL LAWS REGARDING ABORTION.—
(A) IN GENERAL.—Nothing in this Act shall be construed to have any effect on Federal laws regarding—
(i) conscience protection;
(ii) willingness or refusal to provide abortion; and
(iii) discrimination on the basis of the willingness
or refusal to provide, pay for, cover, or refer for abortion
or to provide or participate in training to provide abortion.
(3) NO EFFECT ON FEDERAL CIVIL RIGHTS LAW.—Nothing
in this subsection shall alter the rights and obligations of
employees and employers under title VII of the Civil Rights
Act of 1964.

[Pyro ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ✔]

Sept 14, 2013 15:22:28 GMT -5 @zetta said:

It has never been more obvious you have literally no idea what you're talking about.
Can you think for yourself for once, instead of just circlejerk with the rest of your religious friends?

Tails argumentn are always lulz, making up extremly stupid examples and also stating lies that were made up by opposition and proven wrong as facts from like 4 years ago.

[Tails82]

Ok let's go this route

"It has never been more obvious you have literally no idea what you're talking about."

This has been you this entire argument. You have shuffled from one deranged statement to another and I'm left to try to make some sort of sense of it. You have said religious hospitals are a burden, when they exist to help people. That's what they do. You are challenging the definition of what a hospital is. It's insane. You have said, show me a religious group that doesn't want to expand, as if that's a bad thing. The same diseased idea we should feel bad if someone makes a profit. That's the whole reason they can exist. They cannot operate on a loss. You have failed to explain how a secular group is any different. You have said people have been denied treatment, when they have not and will not be, unless Obamacare runs its course and shuts them down. You support Obamacare, for some odd reason. You claim it protects religious liberty? Why did Obamacare have such a hard time passing, under a Democrat supermajority? The last big hurdle was convincing enough people that it wouldn't fund abortion, when all it did was replace written law with an executive order from someone who is notorious for ignoring laws he doesn't like, who is in the tank with Planned Parenthood, and who defends the mandates when he gets called out on them. Explain to me why there are dozens of lawsuits, a record against legislation like this, over that very issue? Do you pay attention, or do you just like to lie? You are either remarkably misinformed, or seek to insult everyone's intelligence by feeding them nonsense. Do not tell me it won't happen, when the left has already shut down adoption agencies and businesses because they weren't "gay friendly" enough. The lost jobs and the suffering of those who can no longer get help will be on your hands.

What is wrong with you? You want to bring up my religion, let's look at your beliefs. Genderqueer or whatever other silly thing you want to call yourself. What is that? Can we really listen to someone so screwed up in the head they can't determine their own "identity" or can we expect the moral high ground from someone who exposes themselves to others, or is fine with the death of children, placing them in the same category as Stalin, Pol Pot or other murderous thugs? Can we trust people with health care decisions when they think humans are worthless accidents whose value is made up by whoever is in charge, and who can easily take it away? You have no respect for life, or any idea of what it truly is. So until you do, hearing your ideas on health care is like hearing the fox's ideas to guard the henhouse.

lies that were made up by opposition and proven wrong as facts from like 4 years ago.

Examples?

[Tails82]

www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/09/14/new-redline-syria-has-middle-of-2014-to-turn-over-chemicalweapons

New Redline: Syria Has Until Middle of 2014 To Turn Over Chemical Weapons

Should the Assad regime fail to comply, the United States has also agreed that the matter will be turned over to the United Nations Security Council, where Russia can use its veto power to ensure that no military action is taken against Syria.

It is not hard to imagine a scenario where Assad uses this complicated deal as a way to tie America up in diplomatic knots for years as it holds on to its chemical weapons and pounds demoralized Syrian rebels; who had counted on U.S. airstrikes, are still waiting for weapons promised long ago, and took Obama at his word about how Assad must go.

From the looks of it, Vladmir Putin got everything he wanted and the United States will have to wait until Obama's second term is almost half-over before airstrikes can be threatened again.

washingtonexaminer.com/five-of-the-best-videos-of-the-week-obama-mini-me-edition/article/2535745

Five of the best videos of the week: Obama Mini-Me edition

1. Chris Matthews: Remember when US had a real leader, like...George W. Bush?

2. Congressman to John Kerry: “Mr. Secretary, would you please explain what an ‘incredibly small’ strike is?”

3. Retired Gen. Petraeus harassed by students at City University of New York

www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/09/13/Gov-Brown-to-Sign-Bill-Legalizing-Non-Physician-Abortions-in-CA

A bill that would allow non-physicians to perform abortions in the first trimester of pregnancy is awaiting signature by Gov. Jerry Brown of California by Sep. 30...One doctor--who identified himself as pro-choice--told Breitbart News that "the bill is a disaster since it sends us back 100 years to the problems of the complications from back-steet abortions."

Opponents describe AB 154 as an effort by Planned Parenthood and other groups to profit from Obamacare, since the legislation will expand the number of patients eligible for the state Medi-Cal program, and Medi-Cal pays for abortion. They also dispute assurances about the bill's safety for women, arguing that there has been inadequate monitoring of California abortion clinics even prior to the passage of the new legislation.

Abortion has always been a grisly trade. Monitoring efforts have been no different from UN monitoring, looking on as human rights violators slaughtered innocent people. Abortion is murder, there is no "safe" version.

www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/09/13/Palin-to-Union-Members-Demand-Resignation-of-Thug-Bosses-for-Backing-Obamacare

Palin to Union Members: Demand Resignation of 'Thug' Bosses for Backing Obamacare

"Union brothers and sisters, don’t let your incompetent leadership hoodwink you again," Palin wrote in a Facebook post Thursday. "Demand a full repeal, an immediate defunding, and some resignations."

Palin, who has in the past criticized union bosses for betraying their hard-working members, said this was another instance of that, as they believed President Barack Obama's false promises on Obamacare and are supporting carve-outs instead of a full repeal.

"Remember when President Obama promised us, 'If you like your current health care plan, you can keep your plan?'" Palin wrote. "That was not true, and his deceptive claim falls in line with all the other lies about Obamacare—like there’d be no health care rationing."

Her remarks come as union leaders at the AFL-CIO convention this week said the law should be repealed if unions—like big business and Congress—did not get special exemptions and carve-outs in the law.

"Union bosses, you owe your membership an apology, retraction, and resignation," she declared.

She accused union leaders of betraying "their own membership by enthusiastically endorsing Obamacare, and now our good union brothers and sisters are at risk of losing the benefits they’ve worked for and counted on their whole lives."

"More cronyism, select exemptions, and special subsidies make the problem worse," Palin said. "We need to repeal the whole darn thing, and that starts with defunding it."

[kode54]

Abortions are occasionally needed when a pregnancy is not only non-viable, but could potentially kill the mother. Of course, maybe your religious restrictions, not liberties, say it's better for the mother and possibly also the baby to die than for the mother to survive and the baby to definitely die.

I can also see religious hospitals refusing to admit gay spouses because they refuse to acknowledge their marriage to a patient. That's not life threatening, but it would still be a dick move.

I don't care if your religion tells you that you should be offended by something. Go be offended somewhere else.

[Tails82]

That would be you telling a religious group what to do, which would be "wrong" under such a system assuming you're not a hypocrite. When you say "do not force this on me" I am just using words, which is free speech and should be expected. Whereas it is actions that are oppressive when they force hospitals out of the community and Christians out of the public sector.

The principle of double effect does not say let the mother die in life-threatening situations. It says work to save the mother, recognizing that there could be some bad results for the child, but these results are not intended. So the fetus might not survive just as a typical patient might not survive, the point is there is an effort to help instead of harm. Abortion is always the intentional killing of an unborn child, and is not an acceptable option.

[Pyro ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ✔]

Sept 14, 2013 17:52:35 GMT -5 Tails82 said:

lies that were made up by opposition and proven wrong as facts from like 4 years ago.

Examples?

"It's Obama who's set up a death panel and talks about denying care to people"

"On August 7, 2009, Sarah Palin falsely claimed that the proposed legislation would create death panels that would decide if sick and elderly Americans were "worthy" of medical care.[284] By 2010, the Pew Research Center reported that 85% of Americans were familiar with the claim, and that 30% of Americans believed it was true, with three contemporaneous polls finding similar results.[285] The allegation was named PolitiFact's "Lie of the Year",[284][286] one of FactCheck's "whoppers",[287][288] and the most outrageous term by the American Dialect Society.[289] The AARP described such rumors as "rife with gross - and even cruel - distortions."[290] A poll in August 2012 found that 39% of Americans still believed the "death panels" claim.[291]"