Y'know what bugged me back in the days of Sonic 3?

[Deleted]

Tails was always pushed off screen when I had a second player with me. They would spend the entire stage offscreen and then show up to take hits from the boss.
They should make some fancy online co-op remakes where each player has their own screen so as to avoid that particular lameness.
And then you can have it be three player, with Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles at once.

[Pyro ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ✔]

Heh I remember that. Maybe Sonic 4 will have some kind of co-op.

[Mastery]

Or the following thing from KSS/KSSU/SSE?

[Umbreon]

The weak get left behind. It's how things are, and how they'll always be.

[MagmarFire]

Or, you know, people are just racist against Player 2.

[Mastery]

Or maybe Player 2 sucks? My sister could easily catch up wit- oh wait, no she couldn't.

[Pyro ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ✔]

I just played some online co-op of Sonic 4 with someone as Tails. They don't have a seperate screen thing but they do make it sothe screen zoomz out when you get far behind and if you're super far you can press a button and it catches you up, and you actually have an equal part in the game.

[gsk6390]

Also, don't forget Advance 3 for co-op Sonic

[Mastery]

Co-op was the only thing that made Advance 3 fun.

[gsk6390]

May 27, 2012 14:45:47 GMT -5 Mastery said:

Co-op was the only thing that made Advance 3 fun.

And the exploration

And the platforming

And the bosses

Advance 3 is actually a quite good game. It just isn't a solidly good game like Advance 1, CD, Sonic 1 or a great game like Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Sonic 2. At least it isn't a bland, mediocre game like Sonic 4 Episode 1, Advance 2, Rush, Rush Adventure

[Tails82]

Rush was all right.

[Mastery]

May 28, 2012 13:04:32 GMT -5 gsk6390 said:

May 27, 2012 14:45:47 GMT -5 Mastery said:

Co-op was the only thing that made Advance 3 fun.

And the exploration

And the platforming

And the bosses

Advance 3 is actually a quite good game. It just isn't a solidly good game like Advance 1, CD, Sonic 1 or a great game like Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Sonic 2. At least it isn't a bland, mediocre game like Sonic 4 Episode 1, Advance 2, Rush, Rush Adventure

Eh? Advance 1 wasn't solidly good. Advance 3, I felt, had uninspired bosses, the level design wasn't fit for platforming ant it was overall slow.

But your opinions are interesting to say the least. How is Advance 1 better than Advance 2? Advance 1 was a very very slow game that didn't have enough variation with the level design. It might have been fun at the time it came out but it really, really hasn't aged well. Advance 2 fixed the speed issue and was really really fast, one thing I like about it. The other thing is that it always added a new element in each zone to keep things interesting. Also, the air actions which let you flow through the level more seamlessly when launched into the air.

Rush, while not as good as Advance 2, was also a very good game. Some of the levels could be better, but it was a very good way to keep the focus on speed, and it probably had some of the series funner bosses.

[gsk6390]

Eh? Advance 1 wasn't solidly good. Advance 3, I felt, had uninspired bosses, the level design wasn't fit for platforming ant it was overall slow

You say Advance 3 wasn't fit for platforming (the game with quite a bit platforming) yet don't say that about Advance 2 (the game with very little platforming)? And you say Advance 3 was slow? That would mean every 2D Sonic game is slow except Advance 2, Rush and Rush Adventure

How is Advance 1 better than Advance 2?

Advance 2 gameplay is hold-forward-to-win with the occasional QTE (aka Tricks). This changes to "memorise the exact route you need to take to get all 7 SP Rings otherwise restart the level all over again" if you're collecting the Chaos Emeralds. The former sentence describes bland level design, whereas the latter describes trial-and-error. Objectively, Advance 2 can't be called a bad game since it doesn't have stuff like bad controls, game breaking glitches that are easy to accidentally/unintentionally activate, zero gameplay whatsoever etc. However, that doesn't change the fact that the 3 core elements of gameplay of a Sonic game are done rather poorly. There's hardly any platforming (an objectively big no-no for a non-combat based platformer). Exploration isn't about freely looking around (a quality that is the very essence of exploration) instead it's rather strict (doesn't help the fact that the levels are designed to constantly propel you forward over large gaps). Momentum based gameplay boils down to holding a single button.

Advance 1 manages all 3 elements of gameplay well. There's plenty of platforming, exploration is free-form and encouraged, momentum based gameplay revolves around building it up and maintaining it so it can be used to help you complete platforming tasks and explore.

Advance 1 was a very very slow

All they did was port over the exact same engine/mechanics/physics as the Mega Drive games and decrease all numerical variables by exactly 25%. That's it. If you honestly think that makes it a "very very slow" game then every platformer ever is (apparently) extremely slow. Granted, people have VERY odd perception of speed when it comes to video games (even now people still think in Smash that Bowser has a very slow dash speed but call Mario's normal, despite the fact that both are identical in Melee and Bowser is a tiny bit faster than Mario in Brawl, lol). Anyways, yeah it's defnitely slower than all other 2D Sonic's, but it manages to be a quite fast game

didn't have enough variation with the level design

You say this about Advance 1 (the game where all 3 elements of level design are present) yet not Advance 2 (the game with level design consisting primarily of hold-forward-to-win)?

Advance 2 fixed the speed issue

Interestingly, all they did to the speed mechanics was make the following changes from Advance 1:

1. Increase natural top running speed back to the same amount as the classics

2. They made Boost Mode, which doubles your running speed (same speed as Peel-Out in Sonic CD as well as the same amount of speed as the speed boots in the classics)

3. They made it so that the more rings you have, the faster you accelerate

Everything else is identical to Advance 1

Rush, while not as good as Advance 2, was also a very good game

Rush has the same problems as Advance 2 with regards to platforming (hardly any since the game primarily consists of hold-foward-to-win and QTEs in the form of mashing B/A/R for tension) and momentum (boils down to holding a single button). What makes it worse is the incentive to explore no longer exists.

[Mastery]

May 28, 2012 16:57:27 GMT -5 gsk6390 said:

Eh? Advance 1 wasn't solidly good. Advance 3, I felt, had uninspired bosses, the level design wasn't fit for platforming ant it was overall slow

You say Advance 3 wasn't fit for platforming (the game with quite a bit platforming) yet don't say that about Advance 2 (the game with very little platforming)? And you say Advance 3 was slow? That would mean every 2D Sonic game is slow except Advance 2, Rush and Rush Adventure

Whup, I meant Exploring. The platforming is fine. And there were way too many stops in Advance 3 for it to be fact.

Advance 2 gameplay is hold-forward-to-win with the occasional QTE (aka Tricks). This changes to "memorise the exact route you need to take to get all 7 SP Rings otherwise restart the level all over again" if you're collecting the Chaos Emeralds. The former sentence describes bland level design, whereas the latter describes trial-and-error. Objectively, Advance 2 can't be called a bad game since it doesn't have stuff like bad controls, game breaking glitches that are easy to accidentally/unintentionally activate, zero gameplay whatsoever etc. However, that doesn't change the fact that the 3 core elements of gameplay of a Sonic game are done rather poorly. There's hardly any platforming (an objectively big no-no for a non-combat based platformer). Exploration isn't about freely looking around (a quality that is the very essence of exploration) instead it's rather strict (doesn't help the fact that the levels are designed to constantly propel you forward over large gaps). Momentum based gameplay boils down to holding a single button.

Sonic Advance 2 has what I like to call speed platforming. There's no "Stop! Go jump over this. Carry on" Everything could be done on the run. Hell the whole game was designed so you can run through without stopping, even the bosses which are entirely running. The SP rings weren't that hard to find, and was just a matter of picking a different route than you did last time. And it's not trial and error, either you have a lot of time to react, the game makes Sonic loop constantly if you don't do anything/miss your timing (most notable example in the second zone) or it presents you with obstacles you shouldn't have a problem with if you're running uninterrupted, such as grind rails that go upwards or water you should be able to run over. Of course, it's a pretty big departure from traditional platforming so I can see how you wouldn't like it.

Advance 1 manages all 3 elements of gameplay well. There's plenty of platforming, exploration is free-form and encouraged, momentum based gameplay revolves around building it up and maintaining it so it can be used to help you complete platforming tasks and explore.

Advance 1 would be fine under a different name. However as a Sonic game, it was very slow. Now it's been a long time since I played it but I don't even remember that much exploration being involved, or if there was any momentum based platforming that couldn't be spindashed over.

All they did was port over the exact same engine/mechanics/physics as the Mega Drive games and decrease all numerical variables by exactly 25%. That's it. If you honestly think that makes it a "very very slow" game then every platformer ever is (apparently) extremely slow. Granted, people have VERY odd perception of speed when it comes to video games (even now people still think in Smash that Bowser has a very slow dash speed but call Mario's normal, despite the fact that both are identical in Melee and Bowser is a tiny bit faster than Mario in Brawl, lol). Anyways, yeah it's defnitely slower than all other 2D Sonic's, but it manages to be a quite fast game

That's the thing! I'm not comparing it to other platformers. Yes, it's faster than other platformers, speed is still a part of the game. But as far as Sonic goes, it's very slow. I did enjoy it but after Advance 2 and even 3 I can't enjoy it.

You say this about Advance 1 (the game where all 3 elements of level design are present) yet not Advance 2 (the game with level design consisting primarily of hold-forward-to-win)?

As I have said, Advance 2 is not hold forward to win.

Interestingly, all they did to the speed mechanics was make the following changes from Advance 1:

1. Increase natural top running speed back to the same amount as the classics

2. They made Boost Mode, which doubles your running speed (same speed as Peel-Out in Sonic CD as well as the same amount of speed as the speed boots in the classics)

3. They made it so that the more rings you have, the faster you accelerate

Everything else is identical to Advance 1

Those are uh, pretty big changes.

Rush, while not as good as Advance 2, was also a very good game

Rush has the same problems as Advance 2 with regards to platforming (hardly any since the game primarily consists of hold-foward-to-win and QTEs in the form of mashing B/A/R for tension) and momentum (boils down to holding a single button). What makes it worse is the incentive to explore no longer exists.

Not every platformer needs to have exploration. Sonic games aren't known for being metroidvanias (which would be awesome btw) or even having any elements of one at all. Rush put a greater focus on, what I said was, speed platforming, and was actually not momentum based at all but more focused on maintaining both speed AND boost power, which you need to get through a LOT of obstacles and enemies, as well as to get access to the special stages. I had a lot of fun. My only problem is some of the levels (like the desert one) WERE hold right to win and some of them (like the battleship) had no room for speed.

The problem here is you put a greater value on exploration. I love exploring, my favorite genre of game is metroidvania... but when I play a Sonic game (at least, a 2D one) I'm looking for speed. Advance 2 was perfect for me because of the balance it strikes between both speed and platforming and having them happen at the same time, not "run fast! Ok stop. Jump! Ok, you're good. Run fast!"

[gsk6390]

Whup, I meant Exploring

Advance 3 (the game that's all about exploring) wasn't fit for exploring? The game where during its moments that isn't hold-forward-to-win it has multiple pathways for you to choose from depending on your character's abilities? Are you sure you're not mixing up Advance 3 with some other game?

Sonic Advance 2 has what I like to call speed platforming

You can create whatever term you want, that still doesn't change that it has very little platforming and that you can get through most of each level by simply holding forward

There's no "Stop! Go jump over this. Carry on"

The whole point of having walls/obstacles that get in your way in ANY platformer is to prevent them from simply being hold forward. The whole point in Sonic is you build up your speed and have to learn how to maintain it by avoiding those obstacles using your abilities, such as (the staple of platformers) jumping. Granted, that doesn't neccessarily mean that there weren't situations that reset your momentum. Even then, those situations tend to revolve around doing something quick

The SP rings weren't that hard to find, and was just a matter of picking a different route than you did last time. And it's not trial and error

Playing a level, realising the route you picked was wrong, followed by retrying the level for a different route IS trial and error

it presents you with obstacles you shouldn't have a problem with if you're running uninterrupted, such as grind rails that go upwards or water you should be able to run over. Of course, it's a pretty big departure from traditional platforming so I can see how you wouldn't like it

Those moments you described aren't platforming. They're somewhat akin to stuff like moving Megaman in the direction against the escalators in Metal Man's stage in MM2 (ie. situations where you must hold a particular direction otherwise your progress will be ruined). Btw, I personally liked those moments you described as it involves using momentum successfully

Now it's been a long time since I played it but I don't even remember that much exploration being involved

Nearly every moment you can see different potential routes you can take. It also requires a lot of exploration if you're trying to find the Chaos Emerald stages

Those are uh, pretty big changes

It was more a case of posting random little fun facts rather than trying prove something. Advance 3 is the same except Boost Mode is only for Sonic and only for other characters when partnered with Sonic. I'd have liked it if they never removed the more rings gives more acceleration system after Advance 3 since (outside of games with fully playable Super forms) it stops the ring system being flawed

Not every platformer needs to have exploration. Sonic games aren't known for being metroidvanias

Exploration isn't synonymous with metroidvania since it's not the only style of exploration that exists. Sonic's style of exploration is different to most (if not all) platformers

The problem here is you put a greater value on exploration

No, I personally put equal value on platforming, exploration and momentum. Sonic blends all 3 of them in such a way that creates a unique game experience that no other game can give